Culture
Alice in Chains’ William Duvall talks about his history with the MC5, from fan to collaborator
By: Nicholas Kobe
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CLEVELAND, Ohio (WOUB) – Detroit’s MC5 are among rock’s ultimate unsung heroes.
Their debut, Kick Out The Jams, released in 1969, captures the essence of the band in a live setting that sounds years ahead of its time. Despite their short discography and inconsistent touring, the MC5 had an immense influence on genres such as punk rock with their politically charged lyrics, and raw sound.
In the past few years, founding member Wayne Kramer teamed up with singer Brad Brooks to begin work on the first MC5 record in over 50 years, Heavy Lifting. Unfortunately, Kramer passed away earlier this year after a long battle with pancreatic cancer. With some help from collaborators, the record was finished and is released today. This also coincides with the band’s induction to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, which happens tomorrow.
WOUB’s Nicholas Kobe had the chance to speak with Alice in Chains vocalist William Duvall about his history with MC5 ahead of the release of Heavy Lifting. Duvall features alongside Slash (of Guns & Roses fame) on the song Edge of the Switchblade.
Find a transcript of their conversation, edited for length and clarity, below.
Nicholas Kobe:
What does the MC5 mean to you and how have they inspired your own musical career?
William Duvall:
They’re the quintessential high-energy American rock ‘n’ roll band. They kind of galvanized the best elements of the freedom spirit of the ’60s musical renaissance because they were bringing together not just the great rock music that was happening at the time; The Who or The Jimmy Hendrix Experience. They were also bringing in James Brown, and then they were bringing in Sun Ra and Pharaoh Sanders and John Coltrane and Ornette Coleman. Not only bringing those influences in, but I mean they were hanging out with the Sun Ra Arkestra in Ann Arbor. So it was a firsthand immersion in that music and in the ethos of Sun Ra combined with everything else that was happening in Detroit at the time.
I was lucky to be exposed from the very beginning of my interest in music to some of the best music that’s ever been, right? So I started out with Hendrix and with Weather Report, and I was lucky. By the time I’m 11 or 12, I’m into it. I’m playing, I’m collecting records, I’m really seriously listening, I’m analyzing, I’m jamming along with the records. And then I start also reading some of the journalism of the time, which was at a really high level because we were still coming out of the ’60s, ’70s kind of explosion in rock journalism.
And so I was reading a lot of Lester Bangs and Chip Stern. They were still coming to grips with what had happened right in the ’60s or early ’70s. I remember there was one great article where Lester Bangs was drawing the explicit connections between Coltrane’s Ascension album with the Stooges’ Raw Power. I mean, it was neat. It was just really heady, cool, conceptual stuff. And of course, the MC5 are mentioned prominently in articles like that. And so it got me curious, and so I’m like, ‘Wow, okay. I’m trying to check it all out.’ The MC5 in particular captured my imagination because they were really like this five-headed monster.
Even just in the photographs of the band, there’s so much going on in the frame, especially if it’s a live photograph, but even some of their publicity photos are really, really cool. They just looked like they were up to no good in the very best way. And so I used to listen to those records just compulsively, and I used to stare at those photographs kind of wishing I could be anywhere in or around the frame. And so yeah, they were tremendously important to me.
What do you think about the MC5 being inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?
Duvall:
It’s a complex thing. I would say overall, it’s nice that they’re being recognized and it’s nice that they’re being inducted. I would say we’re at least probably 30 years too late for my liking. I think it is criminal that none of them are here to enjoy or otherwise take this in person. That almost makes me physically ill, yet, in a weird way, it’s kind of perfectly in keeping with the MC5’s entire narrative arc. Because they have this incredible energy and all of that super life-affirming, inspiring sound that they created, but there was always this throughline of hard luck and tragedies and bad timing.
Once they got it together and really started projecting their message onto the wider world, it’s just like one thing after another of hard luck, just weird stuff. I mean, some of it I’m sure they would even admit was somewhat brought upon themselves by themselves, but a lot of it was just weird stuff. And this is no different. I mean, I guess there’s an element of “Yeah, why not?” Of course, they’re going to be inducted now, right after all of them, the last of them are gone. And of course, Wayne Kramer is going to pass away as he’s kind of just about to write this new chapter in whatever the MC5’s history is going to be. But all we can do is just try to lean into the positives.
To me, the MC5’s music and what they represent, that’s really key. What they represent is going to live forever. That’s eternal. So some of these infuriating details of their life or their story or whatever, the specifics of it kind of get transcended by just the overall thing of, “Hey, thank goodness these guys were even able to do what they did at all. And thank goodness that it’s being recognized.” I think it’s going to continue to be recognized now with the advent of social media and how randomized in a lot of ways people’s feeds can get. Stuff just turns up in my feed.
I can imagine that photographs or even videos of the MC5 are just out there in the ether. And as long as that is the case, and as long as people are around who are talking about or listening to the MC5, new people are going to discover them. There’s going to be a significant percentage of kids who aren’t even born yet who are going to see a photo or look at a video clip of the MC5 with no context and hear some of that music, and they’re just going to be like, “what in the world is this?” That’s how I found it. I think that’s going to keep happening.
As much as one might have a hard time separating the MC5 from the specific time and place in which they matriculated in the mid-late ’60s with everything that was going on then in the Detroit, which was a hotbed of a lot of stuff, as much as it’s hard to separate them from that, there is a lot about their music that transcends all of that. It transcends politics, it transcends the White Panthers, it transcends all that. I mean, somebody screaming “Kick out the jams m*****f*****”. That’s forever.
So I’m sorry Wayne’s not here. I would’ve much rather been doing this interview as kind of a satellite to whatever he was doing, or maybe even sitting with him somewhere talking to somebody. I would’ve much rather be able to call my friend on the phone and say, “congratulations” about the new release or the induction or any of it. But it is what it is. And so we are left to make of it what we can. So I’m also happy and honored to talk on his behalf because those shows I did with Wayne and Dennis Thompson and Michael in 2008 and 2011, those are two of the best shows I ever played in my life with anybody under any circumstances.
Especially that ‘08 show in London at the Royal Festival Hall with Primal Scream opening for us. It’s one of my favorite memories of my entire career, and it’s always going to be. No doubt about it. I had John Sinclair come up to me backstage at the Royal Festival and just say, “Man, you really took me back, brother,” and that’s all I needed.
Where would you recommend new listeners start with the MC5?
Duvall:
I think it’s always great to start with Kick Out the Jams just because it is their first album and it’s also one of the few situations where a newly signed band debuts with a live album. That really symbolizes kind of what was happening at the time. They were such a strong live band. I know those guys, I personally, firsthand heard them nitpick certain things about that record, like an out of tune guitar here or there or whatever, but overall, it’s just this explosion and it really comes across. The beginning of the album with that clapping and chanting in unison and JC Crawford’s whole shtick, the introduction, and then they just go right into Rambling Rose. I mean, forget about it.
That’s one of the great openings for any record, especially any live record. And then they go into the song, Kick Out the Jams, that’s a one-two punch that I don’t think you can beat. So I’d probably start there. But honestly, all the records have something really cool to offer. I think High Time is probably the apex of the MC5 in the studio. I think that Back In the USA is really cool too. I know there were some issues around production and sound on that record and everything, but it’s a really tight little rock and roll album, and it’s got some of their best songs on it.