Culture
Sérgio Dias of Os Mutantes talks about making music during a time of oppression and the beauty of performing ‘places in between’
By: Emily Votaw
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ATHENS, Ohio (WOUB) – Os Mutantes are a musical force forged in a time of great upheaval and change.
The band of youngsters were key figures in the Brazilian Tropicália movement of the late ’60s. Tropicália challenged the social and cultural norms of the time, all while under the watchful and oppressive eye of a military dictatorship which jailed and exiled some of the movement’s most prominent voices.
By synthesizing an experimental approach to recording with inarguably fine musical chops and a keen sense of humor, Os Mutantes joined fellow musical innovators like Gilberto Gil, Caetano Veloso, Gal Costa, and Tom Zé in pioneering what popular music could do – both sonically and intellectually.
Amidst changing lineups, the band’s constant anchor has been founding member Sérgio Dias, who takes the stage with the group at the 2023 Athens Community Music and Arts Festival. A few days prior, Dias took the time to speak with WOUB Culture.
Find a transcript of that conversation, edited and condensed for clarity, below.
This conversation contains language some may find offensive.
I’m curious: what do you consider your first musical memory – the first time music really ignited your interest?
Sérgio Dias:
Boy, it was in the womb! My mother [Clarisse Leite] was an incredible pianist. She was the first woman in the world to write a concerto for piano and orchestra and to orchestrate it. So I was always exposed to music. But my first thing with rock ‘n’ roll was at a cousin’s place – she had bought Jailhouse Rock, and I stayed the entire afternoon, throwing a pillow up in the air – thinking that it was a guitar! I was a kid. I was probably about five.
Emily Votaw:
Can you talk about how your generation in Brazil would have been exposed to British and American music in the ‘50s and 60s in general?
Sérgio Dias:
I think there were a few things that opened the door. For example, we used to use a shortwave radio to hear the BBC or music from the USA – we would record the songs we heard on an old tape recorder.
Emily Votaw:
What about The Beatles, specifically? I’m interested in hearing about how you came into contact with them.
Sérgio Dias:
My friend, Raphael Vilardi, the guy who was basically the start of everything for [Os Mutantes] so far as playing music and making a band – he bought the 45 of I Want to Hold Your Hand and She Loves You – after I heard it I immediately changed my hair and I was a Beatle from then on.
Emily Votaw:
The Beatles changed everything. On a related note, your music is often associated with the sort of global youth counterculture movement of the ‘60s. In general that movement had a real generational divide aspect to it in the U.S. Was it like that in Brazil?
Sérgio Dias:
Well, in Brazil we had a coup d’état in 1964, so it wasn’t as simple as it was here in America. There was not really freedom of speech. You could be arrested, tortured, or sent out of the country because of what you said or did. It was very different than in the USA, but we had a movement in Brazil at the end of the ‘60s. Before that we had bossa nova, right? And the bossa nova guys were making protest songs. They started to do these festivals, contests. We played these with Gilberto Gil and Caetano Veloso. When we played with Gil for the first time, I was only 16 – and we got second place [at the Festival of Brazilian Popular Music 1967].
You were so young while all of this was happening! Do you remember anything about how that felt at the time?
Sérgio Dias:
I know! Boy – everything was so new, you know? What can I say? I was a very shy kid, and so I would express myself through the guitar and singing. And I also was kind of not very much into the same age of the people that were there in the festivals. They were like 20 something years old, 30 years old. So what would I talk about with them? You know? So we would basically play together – we would jam.
Edú Lobo played Ponteio at [the Festival of Brazilian Popular Music 1967]. There were two green rooms, one on either side of the stage – the one on the right was for the weird people, the one on the left was for the more standard, straight people. So, when Edú Lobo played [the Festival of Brazilian Popular Music 1967] I went like immediately to his green room – and it was kind of a shock to him, you know? Like, how come this longhaired guy is coming into my green room and asking me to play guitar so he could learn? So he played, and I learned immediately – but I was sure to be extremely – how can I say? – efficient. I was very good at playing guitar by the time I was 16.
And so, even straight people had to respect us, because we were too good in what we did. So it didn’t matter if we were like – well, I wouldn’t say “hippies,” – what would it be? The rebels – the youngsters? What would become our rock ‘n’ rollers. I think that would be the best designation, really. And so when we played, you know, we were so good that [the music establishment at large] had to take everything even though at the time there was a big movement against guitars and Americanization of the music. But we broke them. They had to swallow us.
Emily Votaw:
Speaking of the cultural and social climate of the time, I believe your father [poet César Dias Baptista] was arrested shortly after the coup of 1964, right?
Sérgio Dias:
Yes.
Emily Votaw:
How do you think that impacted you? You were really young when it happened – maybe 13?
Sérgio Dias:
Yeah. Well, it was very hard you know, ’cause my father was the right arm of one of the politicians there in Brazil at the time of the coup d’état. Right away they arrested a bunch of people, and my father was one of them because taking my father out of the equation left the politician he worked for kind of a little bit crippled. Because my father wrote all his speeches. He was like his right arm. So my father stayed 20-something days imprisoned.
Emily Votaw:
Do you think your father’s arrest and imprisonment did anything to impact your feelings about humankind in general?
Sérgio Dias:
Well, we were a very tight group – my family, me and my brothers, my mother, my father. It was hard. At the time I couldn’t really understand exactly what was going on, I was too young. I couldn’t know how big this thing was. First they killed Kennedy in the USA. We were all very moved, in Brazil, when Kennedy was killed. I was in school and they sent everybody home – they declared three days of national mourning. So it was a big, big thing. And politics were happening in the aftermath of World War II, the beginning of the Atomic Age. I wouldn’t say I was frightened because I had no perspective – no idea that all of this would come to Brazil. But then after we started the band and we started getting older and older, after the third or fourth festival we played – I would be what, like 17 or 18? – I was 17 I think, when they arrested Gilberto Gil and Caetano Veloso and then expelled them out of the country.
And so this was the first time that it really hit us, where we said ‘wow – this is real.’ We didn’t understand before that. Sometimes when we would play someplace, we would be told to stop because the Army was coming – so we would leave, but we didn’t know what happened after the Army got there or what would happen if we were there when they came. We had thought it was so much fun – it was a thing of like, how can I say? – a 007 thing. So we found we had to leave performances a lot, but when [Caetano Veloso and Gilberto Gil] were arrested, that was a whole different story. Then we got scared.
Emily Votaw:
Given your personal history of persecution under a dictatorship, I’m curious what your thoughts are on the contemporary rise of nationalism and fascism – could you talk about that?
Sérgio Dias:
You know, when we first had Covid, it was like we were invaded by the aliens – all the governments got together and started to work together, and all the scientists and even the companies were all on the same beat. I thought it would be a real change. I thought they would realize that, ‘whoa, we are on a planet and see how fragile it is.’ Our economy was ready to go to hell and everybody was dying – they didn’t have places to put all the corpses. It was shocking enough to cause a real change – I thought.
But now I see it wasn’t. So they don’t learn sh*t – just like they’re destroying the planet. We have never had this kind of heat or weather or fires – or floods. It is the result of global warming. I remember when – what’s his name? The guy who was supposed to be President here but Bush took his place?
Emily Votaw:
Al Gore?
Sérgio Dias:
Yeah, Al Gore. His movie, An Inconvenient Truth – about the problems that were going to come because of what we were doing to the planet. I thought he was amazing. I mean, what he did in terms of describing what was going to happen – it is all happening now. He should have been President, instead of Bush. Because Bush? My God. Oh man! We are having so many bad presidents – all over the years. And it is so hard to see. For example, Bolsonaro in Brazil – if you watch the news there, he’s on the news! I don’t understand why – he is an ex-president! He is forbidden to be elected again! They only talk about him, which is ridiculous – the same with Trump.
Which is so disgusting because they are so low level, you know? I mean, if you think about Trump as an identity for the United States – my God! Where’s the culture? Where’s the knowledge? The finesse? If you compare him to whoever, Woodrow Wilson or Roosevelt or Kennedy – it’s ridiculous. He’s so disgusting. I mean, the level of unpoliteness and lack of respect to what the United States is supposed to be. So I don’t know. Biden, poor guy, he’s trying to do something, but he’s old. I think he’s out of touch. I think it’s really the big companies who are taking over the world. It doesn’t really matter who is in the government anymore. It’s sad, really.
Emily Votaw:
How do you find reprieve from the sadness?
Sérgio Dias:
A reprieve? What do you mean a reprieve?
Emily Votaw:
You know, like is there anything that gives you reprieve, relief – from all these horrible things that are happening and that have happened? On a personal level – maybe with individual people?
Sérgio Dias:
I don’t find a reprieve! I don’t find relief! I don’t. I suffer! I feel sad, I feel disgusted – and what am I going to do? I listen to music. I watch movies, I play music. Playing music is the best part. But, for example, I just had a tour in Europe that we had to cancel because I had serious pneumonia and almost died in Switzerland. So even that I was not able to enjoy too much. I’m getting old, I’m 72. And I see everybody dying all around me. The other day I was at the chiropractor and they played three songs one after the other – one was Michael Jackson, then Whitney Houston, and then Prince! I said ‘damn!’ They’re all dead!’ Or if you watch the Concert for George – everybody’s gone. And it’s so sad.
And the fact of the Internet changed everything too. Like with music – before, you had companies that, for better or worse, allowed for a kind of evolution of the artist. A way to understand an artists’ continuity, to provide context. Imagine now, for example, if you’re a kid now and you listen to The Beatles, and you listen to Tomorrow Never Knows, – and you say ‘wow! That is amazing.’ But then you listen to She Loves You, you’re gonna say ‘*disapproving noise* that isn’t at all like the song I liked.’ That’s because there’s no context! No follow up! You’re not experiencing like the first album, the second album, third album. Fourth album. So you don’t see the development of the artist.
There’s just so much out there, so much music people can access so easily and so many so-called artists who are trying to “make it.” It is very hard for me, for example, to find something new or to hear something that will blow my mind. The last thing that blew my mind was Lisa Marie Presley! I didn’t even know she made music! After she died, I started to listen to her music and she blew my mind! Because she was a rocker, you know? You see girls who are pop stars and they’re basically just singing to the tape.
There’s no anima, there’s no soul anymore in those things. The other day I was watching something which had The Everly Brothers, Mama Cass, and David Clayton Thomas on it. And it was an amazing thing – you could see they were there and it was raw, and they played the hell out of the music. It was fantastic. Who else blew my mind was David Bowie with Blackstar. That thing was phenomenal – I mean, he like described death in a way no one else could have described death. And it really blew my mind.
And Anoushka Shankar – with that album Travellers, where she mixed flamenco music with Indian music and she destroyed on it. The connection was so clear! But no one had made it before. She’s a genius, a great writer, a great player. Besides that, I like to listen to my favorites – like Bonnie, what’s her name?
Emily Votaw:
Bonnie Raitt?
Sérgio Dias:
Bonnie Raitt, she’s just so perfect. There’s a song she sings with Crosby, Stills, and Nash – Love Has No Pride, at Madison Square Garden, it’s perfect. You know, if you think about perfection, can we listen to perfection? Yes, we can! It’s not only about being in tune or how fast you play. Like George Harrison, he is my Beatle. My guitar player. There’s not a solo that he does that you don’t sing and that is not at least as good – or better – than the melody of the song. So that’s not very easy to accomplish. It’s fine to play fast or play pentatonics and all this, but without a start, middle and end for a solo – this leaves a lot to be desired. And The Beatles, I mean, they were the best! They are the best. To be able to follow their career, that was lucky for me.
Because I heard them from their first song all the way to their last. And the last thing they sang was ‘… and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.’ There is no better way to synthesize everything that that movement meant.
“Imagine now, for example, if you’re a kid now and you listen to The Beatles, and you listen to Tomorrow Never Knows, – and you say ‘wow! That is amazing.’ But then you listen to She Loves You, you’re gonna say ‘*disapproving noise* that isn’t at all like the song I liked.’ That’s because there’s no context! No follow up! You’re not experiencing like the first album, the second album, third album. Fourth album. So you don’t see the development of the artist.” – Sérgio Dias
Emily Votaw:
Do you ever see remnants or flashes of what that movement meant in the present? What does that kind of ‘love’ mean now?
Sérgio Dias:
Well, there’s a big difference between love and – how can I say? – perversion, which there is so much of now. I have nothing against sex – I love it. But I remember when I was a kid and I had my first girlfriend – we only kissed for at least two years! I didn’t even know that we had to open our mouths to kiss – there was just a freshness to that feeling that I think has been lost for newer generations. I actually asked that girl’s father if I could be her boyfriend – so there was this kind of a seriousness to the feeling, a kind of responsibility. It’s like we are living in a world that is post-Studio 54. But I actually went to Studio 54 and it wasn’t as scandalous as the kind of thing you see at clubs now.
It’s not like what people were fighting for in the Woodstock and Monterey era – that had much more to do with freedom, with sexual liberty. Now it is much more boring – because what is behind the sex? If you want good sex, you need to have some kind of real emotion going on. Now, sex is something people discard very easily.
Emily Votaw:
When do you think that kind of trend started?
Sérgio Dias:
Whew. Sh*t, in the ’80s, probably. Post-Madonna. Madonna at least has substance and she was doing something that was actually breaking the rules. But then after that, for example, in Brazil, the funk movement – it’s horrid. [editor’s note: this is in reference to funk carioca, not at all related to American funk music] It’s really horrible.
Compare that to the poetry coming out of Brazil in the ‘60s – Jesus, where’s the sensitivity? It’s so explicit. I miss the attention to detail when it comes to the lyrics themselves – I mean the construction of lyrics in those [old] Brazilian songs was just so intense – they don’t even compare to the lyrics of songs coming out of the USA at the time! I mean, that’s really kid’s stuff. You know like *sings Teach Me Tiger* — and that was like the main breakthrough of sexuality! I don’t know, who am I to judge?
Emily Votaw:
I know what you mean, but I asked for your judgement, so I appreciate you telling me. Do you think things can change?
Sérgio Dias:
I have no idea, sweetheart. Really as I told you, I thought they would learn after Covid, and it got worse. And every day it gets worse and worse. And now we just had a record of the hottest day in the history of humanity. Jesus Christ, what the hell is that? And what are they doing about it? So, I don’t know, maybe AI can change things, that’s probably going to be the next generation thing – probably like sex robots and all this. That way people won’t even need to value and respect their sexual partners anymore. It’s very, very sad.
Emily Votaw:
I don’t mean to be abrupt or disrespectful by changing the topic so quickly, but I really value your time and I am really curious how Os Mutantes came to be playing the gig I’m calling about – a free festival in the rural college town I live in, the Athens Community Music and Arts Festival?
Sérgio Dias:
We’re finally with a really fantastic agency – Space Agency group. And they are very in tune with us – Joey, the guy who takes care of us, he’s getting us the best shows. He understands us and knows where to put us. It’s been a beautiful trip for the band. This last year we did like, my God – three tours in the U.S. We’re about the start another one. We did the half tour in Europe, in Brazil also. We’ll be playing all over the place. But it’s really the places in between that are the best, if you know what I mean.
It’s the best when you go and it’s 300 people and they are going crazy! It is so intimate, you know? And the band is a very – how can I say – a real band, we are very true. So we have the freedom to do whatever we want on stage. Every one of the musicians has that freedom. So if the guys start doing something, the rest of us will just follow, or if the audience asks for a song – even if we don’t know the song we will try to learn it on stage! It is the sort of complicity between all of us and our audience – it is something that you cannot describe. I mean, since 2006 when we came back, we’ve been playing and there’s not been a show where we don’t come back to the stage at least twice. There have been people who travelled all the way from Japan to see us, you know! It has been so humbling. I have such a deep gratitude for the fact I get to do this. We love you guys!
You know, I’m doing this because of your generation, and the generation after you. When we started playing again [in 2006] I thought we’d only have people my age in the audience – and actually there were kids and old guys, people from every generation. And it’s been like this all over the place. It’s such an honor, really. After breaking all the barriers we did – for example, singing in Portuguese in the USA – that was unheard of before. I’m very blessed. I just have to thank you guys for the love and dedication that you guys gave us. We are no superstars! We are not full of sh*t. We’re just kids. I’m 72, but I have the same mentality and feeling that I had when I was 13, 14. There are difficult things about getting older – for example I’m having to play sitting down because I have a problem in my spine. I can’t stand because it hurts so bad.
“And the band is a very – how can I say – a real band, we are very true. So we have the freedom to do whatever we want on stage. Every one of the musicians has that freedom. So if the guys start doing something, the rest of us will just follow, or if the audience asks for a song – even if we don’t know the song we will try to learn it on stage! It is the sort of complicity between all of us and our audience – it is something that you cannot describe.” – Sérgio Dias
Emily Votaw:
I don’t mean to pry and I hope it’s okay to ask this – but I have been wondering how your health is? I saw when you all had to cancel the European dates.
Sérgio Dias:
Well honestly, I’m a little bit scared. The last show I did was in Switzerland, and the doctor forbid me to sing because my oxygen level was too low. And so I only played the guitar, which was a very interesting and weird experience. I was basically on doctor’s orders not to play, and I took so many antibiotics. I’m not sure if when I step on stage I’m gonna be 100 percent secure. I haven’t been studying or playing or anything like that. I think it was a hard thing, this thing of pneumonia – you know, I tried to keep the entire tour, but it was impossible. When I went to the hospital, the doctors locked me there so I wouldn’t be able to leave – because when you’re doing this and you’re sick or whatever, you don’t feel that much that you are sick. You always believe you’re gonna be able to do it.
But then, you know, there was a time that my blood pressure went so low that I just collapsed as I was leaving the van! So it was like ‘f*ck – what’s happening with me?’ Because often we don’t know our own limits. And I’ve always gone to my total limit – I don’t know if I can play three hours in a row – but that’s what we used to do!
Emily Votaw:
How are you dealing with that emotionally? Like, not having, maybe, the endurance you once had?
Sérgio Dias:
Well, I know myself. And I’m a hell of a guitar player – I’ve been playing since I was what, like 11? So I trust that I will be able to get myself together and I know that the spirits around me will be very high, which will supply me. The energy of the audience can change your whole show completely. We never have a show that is rehearsed from top to bottom – there’s so much room for improvisation that I’m sure they’re gonna fill me up with so much energy that I’ll be okay.
The Athens Community Music and Arts Festival happens tomorrow on Union Street between Congress Street and Court Street. The event kicks off at 11 a.m.