Culture
Shirley Manson dives deep on key Garbage songs on tour with Noel Gallagher: 90s hits ‘have different meanings to me now’
By: Ian Saint
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CINCINNATI, Ohio (WOUB) – Garbage and Oasis were among the top genre-pioneering bands of the mid-90s’ alternative renaissance, that emerged in the wake of grunge fervor — in fact, Garbage’s drummer, Butch Vig, was the producer for grunge’s biggest blockbuster album: Nirvana’s Nevermind.
Three decades later — as Gen Z influencers, many of whom were born after Garbage and Oasis made their debuts, resurrect that era’s fashion to be in vogue today — fans of this unforgettable chapter of rock music get a unique chance to catch a co-headlining tour between Garbage and Noel Gallagher’s High Flying Birds (the current outfit for Oasis’s primary songwriter). The tour’s sole Ohio stop takes place at Cincinnati’s Riverbend Music Center (6295 Kellog Ave.) on Saturday.
WOUB had a chance to preview the tour in Dallas, Texas — where I was struck by the remarkable diversity of ages that comprised their fans. Both Garbage’s frontwoman, Shirley Manson, and Noel Gallagher are 56 today — and it dawned on me that, although industry pundits might myopically claim that 56 is “too old” to excite the masses with new material, Manson and Gallagher are actually at the pinnacles of their careers: having a generation-spanning past catalogue that has held up well, releasing new material that still captivates audiences in the present, and having decades of future material still ahead of them!
Shortly before their Ohio arrival, Shirley Manson graciously obliged an in-depth review of several Garbage classics — each from a different album, ranging from their 1995 debut to their current No Gods No Masters — that they’re performing on this tour. We also reflected on notable Garbage fans of generations preceding and succeeding Manson’s: from the 11 year-old boy that she honored in Dallas, to my 90 year-old Nana from Scotland.
Hey, Shirley Manson! Thank you for speaking to us at WOUB, the NPR affiliate in Ohio — where your tour with Noel Gallagher will play on Saturday, at Cincinnati’s Riverbend Music Center. I caught the show in Dallas, and as I wrote in my review, I absolutely loved it. I do have to mention, before we start talking about the music… my grandmother, Eileen, is from Scotland — and she went to Broughton High School!
Shirley Manson:
Oh, my gosh! That’s where I went!
Ian Saint:
Yes, exactly! Now, she’s in her 90s, and she [graduated Broughton] in 1948… but she was so excited for me to speak to a gal from Broughton. And she lives in Ohio now — so you will not be the only Broughton girl in the Buckeye State!
Shirley Manson:
<laugh> Oh, my goodness! That’s crazy. She might possibly have known my granny, because my granny taught at Broughton High.
Ian Saint:
Really?
Shirley Manson:
Yeah, she taught mathematics. That’s insane! Pearl Mitchell [was her name]. I don’t know, quite off the top of my head, when she was there… but yeah. Amazing!
Ian Saint:
Yes! Well, Nana just had one question for you — as she was so excited about me interviewing you…
Shirley Manson:
<laugh> Go ahead, Nana!
Ian Saint:
I guess there’s been a new building since she graduated Broughton in 1948, and she wanted to know: did you attend Broughton when it was the red granite building?
Shirley Manson:
No, I was in the new building in the ‘70s. But I know the school she went to very, very well — I mean, it’s very close to where my father currently lives, so I know it’s still there. It’s kind of amazing… I don’t think it functions as a high school anymore, but it’s there.
Ian Saint:
Wonderful! Thank you for entertaining Nana’s question. <laugh> I don’t know how many times you get asked questions from 90 year-old Scottish ladies in Ohio…
Shirley Manson:
Aww, I love 90 year-old Scottish ladies! They’re my favorite people.
Ian Saint:
Oh, well, she’ll be delighted to hear that! So you’re touring with Noel Gallagher… and as I was watching the show in Dallas, I had a sort of epiphany. Both of you are associated with the ‘90s, as that’s when you launched — and you’re pioneers of that burgeoning scene. But you both have new albums; both are excellent.
What struck me about the new songs from your new album, No Gods No Masters, was how seamlessly they fit in amongst your ‘90s cuts. Similarly, your older material — you know, these songs are 25-29 years old — some of them, they suit the present so well. Not only sonically — they don’t sound dated, as a lot of records from that time do — but the substance of the subject matter has aged well… and I just think about how there have been so many paradigm shifts since the ‘90s and 2000s, where a lot of popular works of the time are a little cringe in the present.
There’s a timelessness to your music, both new and old, that is really beautiful. So I would love to talk about a handful of songs that you’re doing on this tour — both new and old — and sort of tie them together, in a philosophical way, as we attempt to make sense of this crazy time in history.
The Men Who Rule the World (No Gods No Masters 2021)
Ian Saint:
We’ll start off with the newest material. In Dallas, you performed The Men Who Rule the World, the lead single off No Gods No Masters. And I noticed this young boy, who I’ve since learned is only 11 years old… he was standing on the chair, and he knew every word of this newer song, and he was very animatedly singing along to it. Him and dad had matching Garbage shirts. And as I wrote in the review, we were so touched when we saw you acknowledge this boy — and you even gave him drumsticks from [Garbage drummer] Butch Vig.
You wrote The Men Who Rule the World with the wisdom that comes from touring the world for as long as you have. What’s it like to perform that song, and to see such young fans reacting so strongly to it? Maybe especially when it’s a boy; because I think there’s a sort of stupid patriarchal disapproval, sometimes, of boys looking up to women as their role models.
Shirley Manson:
Well, first of all, to see any young person — regardless of their gender — connect to our songs, with the ferocity that young child did, was really moving to me! And it always is. And actually, on this tour, he hasn’t been the only kid that has been at the front and mouthed every word with such intensity.
It sort of blows me away, to be honest. And it’s really thrilling that we’re saying something, with that song, that we felt really needed to be said, you know? I find it interesting that young people connect with it, with so much passion… because I think they feel like I do — I’m concerned about the future, not just for myself, but for generations to follow.
That song, in particular, is really voicing disapproval with the status quo; and what are predominantly male-dominated governments around the world. It’s not just in America, it’s not just in the UK; it’s everywhere! And I find that alarming, because I think government needs to represent *all* of us, not just white men — and if you only have white men in power, then they make mistakes like *any* human being is gonna make a mistake, right? So the whole idea of having diverse government is that you have checks and balances, and people remind you of maybe why this policy might not actually be cool!
So, I guess that’s why that song in particular — The Men Who Rule the World — is my favorite track off our latest album. I felt it was something that I really needed to say, because I was so frustrated. I remain frustrated at the arrogance and single-mindedness of predominantly white male governments. I think it’s dangerous, and I would like to see more diversity across the board — for the safety of *all* humans on the planet.
Ian Saint:
Sure. And probably representation from other groups, where they don’t hail from, you know… I guess I think of someone like Margaret Thatcher, who — I don’t know your feelings about her, but I would probably imagine [you] didn’t align too well with her on policies?
Shirley Manson:
No; I wasn’t a great Thatcher fan, either. You know, she was just under a lot of pressure — like a lot of single women who manage to get into positions of power. I think they find themselves in a very sticky situation, feeling that they’re going to be judged because they’re a woman… rather than if you have more women involved, I think you can just get a sort of broader swath of all different ideologies and philosophies across the board. You know, you can’t just have one woman — of course she’s gonna be probably just as bad as the men in power. I mean, it’s a complicated issue; we could talk about this for an hour or more, and never get anywhere really too far. But, yeah, suffice to say: I would just like broader representation for all peoples everywhere in governments around the world.
Special (Version 2.0 1998)
Ian Saint:
Shortly after [you performed] The Men Who Rule the World, my brain went a little haywire, because as you performed Special… I’m sort of in between you and that 11 year-old boy, as far as my age. I was a little kid when that music video came out, that was very memorable in 1998, where you and all [your bandmates] are intergalactic space pilots.
I think [the Special] video really epitomizes the aesthetic of pop culture in those last couple of years leading to Y2k. And I just vividly remember the excitement of the new millennium — you know, so much excitement about the advancements that were possible… but here we are 23 years later into the new millennium, and I’m personally probably not as optimistic about human prospects as it was then. You know, we’ve weathered a lot of calamities in this nascent decade alone.
In The Men Who Rule the World, you sing “the men who rule the world have made a f***ing mess.” And when you sing Special, I kind of felt like the way you sing the chorus in particular seems to have a different vibe. You sing it today from a source of wisdom, and as a survivor of many challenges, in world history and also your personal life — versus when you sang it 25 years ago. Am I onto something here?
Shirley Manson:
I think as an artist, you need to remain in the present. I think it’s really dangerous when an artist get really tied to how famous they were in previous decades, and they try to hold onto their fame and their power and their glamor. I think, as an artist, you really have to remain where you are, who you are, you know?
And I’m now a 56 year-old woman, you know. As you said, I’ve really been through the wringer — like all human beings, if you’re lucky enough to live long enough, you’ll have a very storied life. And that *is* imbued in the music [of my older songs] now. If I sing Stupid Girl or Only Happy When It Rains [off Garbage’s 1995 debut] or Special or I Think I’m Paranoid [also off Version 2.0], they absolutely do have different meanings to me now — because I’m just coming from a different place, and I have to inject that into the music… otherwise, I think I would just be stuck. You know, I don’t want to be stuck as a young woman; I really want to continue to grow as an adult, and as a musician, and be curious about the world I’m in now.
Ian Saint:
Yes! You reminded me of Steve Hackett of Genesis. I interviewed him…
Shirley Manson:
<bursts out laughing> Well, that’s the first [time] I’ve ever been told THAT!
Ian Saint:
Well, the reason you remind me of him is, you know… <laugh> Gosh…
Shirley Manson:
<laugh> Sorry, I’m not trying to be rude! You just caught me by surprise.
Ian Saint:
Oh, no, you’re fine. <laugh> Well, I mean, this is kind of a testament to how profound what you just said is — because you were surprised by how this reminded me of Steve, you know, and he’s doing 50th anniversary tours of his material with Genesis.
Shirley Manson:
Incredible!
Ian Saint:
But he said your relationships with songs change over time, [which reminds me of] what you just said about a song like Stupid Girl.
Stupid Girl (Garbage 1995)
Ian Saint:
I’m glad that you brought [Stupid Girl] up, because that was another one where I thought about how [powerful it is] to see you perform that song in the present — 27, 28 years after you took a bold stand with that song, [that] you’re not going to squander your potential to appease the patriarchy, and downplay your brilliance, radiance, and innovation. I think that the message of the song was very strong back then — but as someone who has been authentic, bold, and true to yourself in the three decades since… the power of that song in your *present* self is really inspiring.
Shirley Manson:
Well, thank you. That’s a really lovely thing to say. I mean, I agree with you. I think the whole thrust of that song has shifted, because so many decades — you know, three decades of my past, which is hard to believe — have passed since we released that song. And the meaning [of that song] for me has changed enormously.
When I was younger, it was sort of an admonishment to — as you said — women who played up to this sort of patriarchal expectations. You know, it was quite frankly a little judgmental. And then I had a period of time in my life, where I didn’t want to sing that song, because I felt it was anti-female in a funny way. I got all mixed up in my own head about it, and I just didn’t feel good about singing it. And now I feel that it’s more an admonishment to my younger self, really, than [to] anybody or anything else. And, you know, it was a big hit for us. [Editor’s note: Stupid Girl’s crossover success resulted in a #23 peak on Billboard’s Hot 100.] So I have lovely feelings connected to that; but the meaning definitely has shifted for me.
Ian Saint:
I’m gonna get sentimental for a second, [because of] you saying that. I remember, as a very young boy, being in the record store of this suburb of Cleveland [where] I didn’t really fit in socially well, at all. <laugh> I remember being in that record store, and [seeing] the poster for your first album [that Stupid Girl hails from] just stopping me in my tracks — because the whole concept of “GARBAGE,” you know, in big letters but juxtaposed with the beautiful pink feathers, and this gorgeous girl at the helm of the band. When I listen to Stupid Girl, you know, I’m not a girl — but I think about how I dulled myself [down], sometimes, growing up in a very conformist suburb. To give you an idea, George W. Bush campaigned for re-election at my high school — that’s how popular he was, with the culture there…
Shirley Manson:
Oy!
Ian Saint:
Yep. So speaking as a male, even, Stupid Girl resonates with me, as far as [admonishing my own self for] the way that I would dull my shine sometimes. That cuts across gender, and a bunch of other demographics. I don’t know, when you wrote it, if you necessarily anticipated how broad of an impact it would have?
Shirley Manson:
Yeah. I think, like you said, it could apply to *any* gender — but at the time, “Stupid Girl” sounded so much more provocative… and we wanted to be provocative, you know? So I think that’s why we sort of settled on “Stupid Girl”; but it could have easily been about anybody, really. The human race is riddled with stupidity; I think we can both agree on that. <laugh>
Ian Saint:
Well, fair enough. <laugh>
Cherry Lips (Go Baby Go!) (beautifulgarbage 2001)
Ian Saint:
We’re hitting two decades on this one: Cherry Lips, from beautifulgarbage, which addressed gender fluidity. Androgyny, the first single from beautifulgarbage, I hadn’t realized the music video literally premiered [on MTV] on September 10th, 2001. I remember vividly — you know, we talk about paradigm shifts — how quickly it changed in the wake of 9/11: with the wars that emerged, and sort of the backlash towards the social progressivism of the late ‘90s, as far as women in rock weren’t being played nearly as much, and so on.
What strikes me about Cherry Lips is, you know, this is something that’s heavily in the discourse of the mainstream today: gender fluidity, gender transition, gender non-binary, things of that sort. But my memory of back then [is] it really wasn’t. Those things were sort of being explored in the late ‘90s — again, I’m limited by the myopia of my own surroundings — but it was sort of becoming discussed more. But then, in the wake of 9/11, I just feel like we took a step backwards.
Shirley Manson:
I totally agree. I totally agree with everything you’re saying. There was a huge shift to a much more conservative way of looking at things. You know, from the ‘90s, there was a lot of freedom — and, as you said, we were all beginning to explore some of the stigmas that existed in our cultures. And then September 11th happened, and [the subsequent political climate] was devastating for any sort of marginalized voice [of] any marginalized peoples, anywhere.
Suddenly, there was so much suspicion and fear… and it sort of stopped our career in its tracks, to be honest, because Cherry Lips was really the single that all our managers — we had two managers at the time, we had 2-3 different record companies around the world — and they were all thinking, this is the single that’s gonna really smash it for this band… and, it didn’t! We got hauled off the airwaves.
Nevertheless, this song, to me, is a very important one in our discography and [I’m] very proud of it. It’s very strange; it doesn’t sound like any other Garbage song we’ve ever written. It’s a glorious, anthemic, uplifting, feel-good sort of sound of joy, really… and celebration of all sort of — as you so rightly described — gender fluidity, identity, and so on and so forth. So, yeah, I love it.
It’s also quite weird, in a funny way, in that it’s the most traditionally [pop-]sounding of all our songs. It’s a real pop song, you know? But it’s become a live favorite, like the fans — really much to my surprise, in a way — really gravitated towards it. And it’s always some one of the songs that everyone shouts out for every show. Yeah, I have a lot of pride in that song.
Ian Saint:
In retrospect, I think about Androgyny being the first single, and those societal shifts — I shouldn’t say shifts, it was more like earthquakes — that ensued. I mean, it’s just crazy to me, [how the Androgyny] music video premiered the day before 9/11. We know how quickly things shifted. So by the time you were approaching that [subsequent] single, I would suspect [you] were aware that maybe Androgyny had backlash unfolding…
Shirley Manson:
Yes.
Ian Saint:
And, yet, you still decided to push forward with Cherry Lips [which also addressed those themes facing backlash]…
Shirley Manson:
Yeah!
Ian Saint:
But I would imagine some would say, “no, America’s not ready for that — this isn’t, you know, going with the wavelengths.” And you guys still did it. And here we are, two decades later, where you look so bold and brave in doing so… and it resonates very well in the present, 20 years later, [but] a lot of 20 year old songs can’t do that!
Shirley Manson:
I think whenever you decide to talk about things that you are “not supposed to talk about,” you’re kind of already forward-thinking… because, eventually, all these stigmas get broken down — it’s just the nature of our culture, you know. Things exist! You can’t deny them. They will eventually come to light because they are there, you know — and I think there’s this strange idea, that if we don’t talk about something, it will go away. If we deny the existence of trans peoples, they’ll go away. Well, that’s not how it works!
Trans peoples have existed for centuries. They’re never going anywhere! They’re here. So let’s talk about it, so that all of us can get educated, and actually accept people for who they are — instead of being a little off-put, because it seems a bit strange, you know?
So I think whenever you’re willing, as an artist, to talk about difficult subject matter — or, you know, subject matter that’s considered a little risky, or might alienate some of your fans — you ultimately are still pushing culture forward, in your own little way. You’re pushing your own creativity forward, and you will only get rewarded for it long term.
Certainly in the short term, we got punished for it… and, you know, I wouldn’t change a damn thing about that. I don’t care! I don’t care that I didn’t go to #1, like our record company really thought [Cherry Lips] was gonna be a #1 record for us. And it was devastating that it got so shut down; but now, in retrospect, 20 years later, I’m so proud of it. I’m proud that we had the guts to do it, you know?
Ian Saint:
And you’re exactly right, that that attempt to sweep something under the rug back then didn’t pan out — because now it’s more mainstream than ever! <laugh>
Shirley Manson:
Correct. Exactly!
Bleed Like Me (Bleed Like Me, 2005)
Ian Saint:
So the last song I wanted to ask you about — because I saw so much metaphor in what ensued when you did it in Dallas — you might recall, you saved the life of a very grateful beetle…
Shirley Manson:
<bursts out laughing>
Ian Saint:
I don’t know if you realized it at the time, [but] you did that right after Bleed Like Me. I played back the recording — you performed Bleed Like Me, and then you saved this bug’s life! And I’m like, “well, gosh, isn’t that poetic?”
Because Bleed Like Me, when I listen to it, it seems to be about empathy for [other] species — I was going to say “people,” but this could be applied broader to species that are different from you, that could be looked down upon, as beetles certainly are. And you extended empathy towards this beetle right after <laugh> performing the song. Is that [realization] something that hit you at the time?
Shirley Manson:
No, I didn’t even think about that! I didn’t even think about that, to be honest. But, I mean, I am an empathetic person for sure. I’m considered “hypersensitive,” you know, I was always told as a child [that] I was too sensitive. Some would argue I am that way today.
When I was young, I felt like being called “too sensitive” was an insult… now, I find, it’s a compliment — because I *want* to be sensitive! I want to be sensitive to other people. And I want to imagine what it must be like to be someone who is judged by others. I don’t want to be judging other people; I want to put myself in their shoes, and at least extend respect and kindness, you know? Um, and it’s the same goes for like creatures — any kind of creature. I’m a huge animal lover, and I know that there’s still people out there who don’t think animals have feelings, which absolutely crushes me.
Animals absolutely do have feelings and emotions; and [they] are so precious in this life. I wish there were more animals, less human beings. Um, but I didn’t realize that I had saved the beetle <laugh> after singing Bleed Like Me!
But Bleed Like Me, you are right, is a song about practicing empathy — trying to understand something you don’t understand. Like, you know, just try to extend kindness and respect… instead of jumping to judgment, and trying to punish others who don’t resemble yourself. If somebody is just minding their own business, being themselves in the way that they wish to express themselves, please leave them alone! It’s none of your business, how another person chooses to exist in this life. Unless they’re interfering with another human being’s safety, it’s none of your business — leave them be, please. That’s what that song’s about.
Ian Saint:
Well, you talk the talk in performing the song, and then you walk the walk with sparing this beetle…
Shirley Manson:
<laugh> I can’t believe I did that! I lost my mind a bit. I mean, I wouldn’t always save every single insect on our stage; but it was a really big beetle, and so I couldn’t ignore him. He was there, and I wanted to save his life, because he just was struggling so hard and it was so horrible to watch. So we saved his life! And we moved on. <laugh>
Reflecting on opening for Alanis Morissette and Tears for Fears in 2021-2022
Ian Saint:
Well, thank you so much for reviewing these songs. You know, I was just so taken aback by the multi-generational appeal for [both] your older songs and your new songs, and the range of fans that come out to see them. I do want to mention to people that I saw you opening for Alanis [Morissette] in 2021. I interviewed Curt [Smith] from Tears for Fears, last year, when you were the opener for them then.
Shirley Manson:
Oh, wow!
Ian Saint:
So I do wanna mention [you performed at] Riverbend in 2021 and 2022, opening for Alanis and Tears for Fears. But as someone who caught one of those shows… I just want to encourage our listeners that, even if they had just recently seen you guys open, getting a Garbage headlining show is like a whole new level of experience and awesomeness.
Shirley Manson:
Well, I should probably mention, to be fair, that since you saw us play [in Dallas], we have flipped with Noel; and Noel Gallagher and his High Flying Birds are now [closing]. It’s a co-headline tour; so we got [to close] the first half of the tour, and now Noel is taking the second half — the show that you saw remains the same, but it’s in the middle slot. So there’s [opening band] Metric, then it’s Garbage, and then Noel takes the show home.
Yeah, we’ve been very blessed to have played three years of running in North America, and playing with such great artists as Alanis and Tears For Fears. And now, we’re working with Noel Gallagher and the High Flying Birds — they’re a fantastic band, beautiful people. We’ve had a blessed tour; and it’s a great privilege to play with amazing musicians every night. It’s a really lovely way to spend your life, and I’m very grateful to the fans for allowing us to do it!
Ian Saint:
Well, we’re so grateful that you gave us your time! We know it was short notice.
Shirley Manson:
All right, well, thank you for your support! I really appreciate it.
Ian Saint:
Absolutely! Have a wonderful show on Saturday, and safe travels in the meantime.
Shirley Manson:
Thank you, Ian Saint! Cheers!
Garbage and Noel Gallagher’s High Flying Birds are on a co-headlining tour, that plays Cincinnati’s Riverbend Music Center (6295 Kellogg Ave.) on Saturday, July 1. For tickets, and their full tour itineraries, visit their official websites: noelgallagher.com or garbage.com.